Greetings friends,
Just want to let you know that I have not disappeared. I apologize for the break in my writings and postings. I have been taking some time and taking care of some personal business. I am headed off to Colorado June 1st thru the 10th. I have lots of things in my head to write about. Just need to make the time to write them down. I hope and pray that all is well with you all. Take care and stay faithful!
5 comments:
Hey T! Can't wait to see you tonight! Have a safe trip!
Dear Reformed Blogger,
Your blogging-mate laurenceo.com (the Lo-down) Laurence O’ Donnell III does not have the stomach for a real public debate over the Gospel of St. John. He has run as fast as Barry Bonds from a steroid test. I have attached our entire conversation
Laurence talks big publicly, with phrases like:
• Dr. James White is correct: Christians who take a bold stand against Roman Catholicism's heresies are ostracized by evangelicals who have seemed to embrace Catholics as true brothers in Christ. And Dr. White seems to be one of the few Christians who will stand against Roman Catholicism in the public forum:
• Let's be real clear here. Al Mohler was right in 2000. Rome is a false church.
• When will more Christian leaders stand up for truth and boldly proclaim God's Word in love to Roman Catholics, who if they believe their own doctrinal statements, they do not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Two big insults to 1.1 billion people, then a big chest thumping statement about boldly proclaiming Christ’s love for all mankind. I begged to differ with Laurence O’ Donnell III in a debate about his positions, he then responded in half truths. Then Laurence O’ Donnell III refuses to publicly to back up his statements of half truths. Laurence O’Donnell III hides behind this line, “I tried to email you privately….” What about boldly proclaiming God’s Word in love to Roman Catholics? Is Laurence O’ Donnell III scared of the Gospel? Here is your big chance!
So Reformed Blogger, encourage ol’ “Spaghetti Leg’s” O’Donnell get his back off the mat and get back into the fight! Help him out, send him some powerful testimony by old baldy himself Dr. James White or pour through all your books, to help Laurence O’Donnell III be able to go to sleep to night.
Define, defend, explain and boldly proclaim Christ’s own words in St. John’s Gospel Chapter 6.
Catholic Joe
Can’t Christians Clearly Call Roman Catholicism a False Gospel?
laurenceo.com
By Laurence O’ Donnell III
With all of the hubbub around the old Pope's death and the new Pope's installment, it seems like many "Christians" (whatever that means today) are falling prey to the lies of universalism and plurality that are devouring our postmodern age.
Dr. James White is correct: Christians who take a bold stand against Roman Catholicism's heresies are ostracized by evangelicals who have seemed to embrace Catholics as true brothers in Christ. And Dr. White seems to be one of the few Christians who will stand against Roman Catholicism in the public forum:
Let's be real clear here. Al Mohler was right in 2000. Rome is a false church. Why? Because Christ's Church is subject to Christ's Word, and Rome is not. Because Christ's Church presents Christ's gospel, and Rome does not. And Rome's gospel cannot save because it tears the very heart out of the gospel and replaces it with a semi-Pelagian treadmill of sacramental forgiveness—or, in lots of places in the world today, has dumped that for an inclusivistic/universalistic mishmash of New Age philosophy and post-modernism that would make Pope Pius IX spit nails. In any case, the gospel of grace has been anathematized by Rome—and thrown under the bus by pseudo-evangelicals, but it remains the only power of God unto salvation.
Speaking of Dr. Al Mohler (another of the few Christian leaders who stand against Rome's gospel), he has recently pointed out that the strange, new situation true Christians now find themselves in is that they have more in common with the new Pope on many social and theological issues than they do with liberal evangelicals (i.e. Rome's stand on homosexuality vs. the Episcopalian stand, etc.):
One of the strange dimensions of this entire picture is the fact that evangelicals, concerned with the preservation of biblical truth and determined to defend biblical morality, will share much common ground with this new pope.
When will more Christian leaders stand up for truth and boldly proclaim God's Word in love to Roman Catholics, who if they believe their own doctrinal statements, they do not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. (1 Corinthians 15:1-10 ESV)
________________________________________
4 Responses to “Can’t Christians Clearly Call Roman Catholicism a False Gospel?”
Feed for this Entry Trackback Address
1. 1 Catholic Joe Jun 16th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
The Truth is Laurence, Catholics wrote the Gospel under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They canonized it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they published it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they spread it upon the behalf of the Holy Spirit, they preached it under the direction of the Holy Spirit. and they live it under the authority of the Holy Spirit.
Laurence how could it be that Holy Spirit would allow a church to exist and grow and evangalize the world, since Jesus instituted the Catholic Church at Pentacost some 2,000 years ago, if it was a false church until the 16th -17 th Century Reformation? Tell me then why the churches(Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran and the assortment of Calvinist movements) started by the reformers, continue to shrivel on the vine and spiral into theolological and moral maddness of 33,000 versions(current number of protestant denominations) of what the Gospel is supposed to mean?
So Laurence, I am asking you as a Christian to take Jesus into your body and soul, live out His plan for you. Join the The Holy Roman Catholic Church and see what John Chapter 6 is all about and “Live”
God bless you
Catholic Joe
2. 2 Laurence O Jun 17th, 2006 at 11:51 am
Hi Joe,
Again, thank you for sharing your perspective. It is nice to know there are some readers of this blog outside of my own tradition.
The Truth is Laurence, Catholics wrote the Gospel under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They canonized it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they published it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they spread it upon the behalf of the Holy Spirit, they preached it under the direction of the Holy Spirit. and they live it under the authority of the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps you would be surprised at how much I would agree with your summation of church history, though I would add at least one thought: To use the phrase “Catholics wrote the Gospel” can be somewhat misleading to modern readers who do not realize that there was no Catholic/Protestant distinction in the early centuries of the church. Without this understanding, modern readers can be misled to think that the modern day Roman Catholic church is the same as the first century church, which is a conclusion no one could swallow (not even honest Roman Catholics) without denying the last 2,000 of developments in both Roman Catholic and Protestant church histories.
Laurence how could it be that Holy Spirit would allow a church to exist and grow and evangalize the world, since Jesus instituted the Catholic Church at Pentacost some 2,000 years ago, if it was a false church until the 16th -17 th Century Reformation? Tell me then why the churches(Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran and the assortment of Calvinist movements) started by the reformers, continue to shrivel on the vine and spiral into theolological and moral maddness of 33,000 versions(current number of protestant denominations) of what the Gospel is supposed to mean?
To follow this argument I would have to grant that the “Catholic Church” has not undergone any changes since Pentecost. Isn’t the whole point of the Protestant Reformation that the RCC “crossed the line,” so to speak, from what the Scriptures actually taught (i.e. selling forgiveness of sins through indulgences, etc.)?
Even if you disagree with the Reformation, you still would have to admit that the RCC today is not the same as it was at Pentecost. It has undergone 2,000 years worth of its own sects, theological developments, changes in polity, etc. For example, what about all the changes instituted by church councils (i.e. Vatican I and Vatican II and all the councils before). What of the split between Rome and Constantinople? What about all of the variations withing Catholicism today (i.e. charismatic Catholics believe very differently than non-charismatic, some Catholics call themselves “Reformed Catholics,” etc.).
Moreover, to make an argument that God would not allow His true church to apostatize has two additional difficulties.
First, such an argument ignores multiple passages in the Scriptures which warn the church strongly about turning from the Gospel. Take the book of Hebrews as a whole, for example, or just focus on its specific warning passages (in chs. 6 and 10, for example). Look at St. John’s words to the 7 churches at the beginning of the book of Revelation. And what of the constant call of God in the Old Testament for Israel to not turn away from following the Lord? Read the prophet Micah, for example, or any of the works of Moses, or the opening of the book of Joshua. I could go on and on with examples (i.e. what about Jesus’ warnings about false teachers in the church who would operate like wolves in sheep’s clothing). Even the Scriptures as a whole operate as a constant call to God’s people to realign themselves with the truth and to flee error.
Second, such an argument misappropriates God’s providence by supposing that God does not allow theological error to happen. You mention 33,000 “versions” of Protestants (though that point could be strongly debated) but fail to mention all of the sects within Catholicism. Also you are not allowing the the possibility that among these 33,000 “versions,” some have strayed from the Gospel of Christ.
So Laurence, I am asking you as a Christian to take Jesus into your body and soul, live out His plan for you. Join the The Holy Roman Catholic Church and see what John Chapter 6 is all about and “Live”
From this statement here and your other comment it appears your linchpin is the bread of life passage in John 6. So Joe, I will ask you, like you asked me, to “take Jesus into your body and soul” in the manner He so intended: Spiritual union with Christ. If Jesus intended his disciples to physically eat his flesh, He himself would be violating the law of God (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 7:26-27; Leviticus 17:10-14; Deuteronomy 12:23-24). If Jesus intended literal eating of His flesh, why would He not be consistent and require the same thing in other passages where He talks about His union with His people, such as the vine and branches in John 15? Why would the Apostle Paul describe the mystical union with Christ as even beyond the union between a husband and a wife in Ephesians 5:32?
So, my friend, I ask you to read afresh God’s Word and see the divine union with Christ (Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 1:3-14) by which God brings salvation to His people through Jesus Christ.
3. 3 Catholic Joe Jun 17th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Laurence, do you realize for whom you are named after? St. Laurence the Deacon of Rome. I suggest that you do a little research on St. Laurence and find out how a Catholic Christian lived and died in the early church.
Laurence you made a very bold and prideful statement lacking in Christian charity,
“Al Mohler was right in 2000. Rome is a false church. Why? Because Christ’s Church is subject to Christ’s Word, and Rome is not. Because Christ’s Church presents Christ’s gospel, and Rome does not.”
So I ask you again how does again, ” How does the “False Church” continue in existence after 2,000 years If the Holy Spirit is not in support of it? The number of baptized Catholics in 1979 was around 750 million, last count taken in 2004 that number grew to 1.1 billion. So in 25 years the Church grew by 350 million members! So by your conclusion 350 million people were seduced into apostasy? Come on! You are really stretching it Laurence.
You make the claim that Catholic Church has changed therefore is untrustworthy. Need I remind you of Peter’s walk with Christ that grew in love for the Lord? Was he not a Christian when first called by Christ? Or was he an apostate (backslider) because he was not born again? Ok so to follow your logic. The endless revisions of doctrine within the Calvinistic Churches are to be trusted, and the one version anyone should listen to is Laurence’s version right? So I say to you, “By what authority!” Are you now the self-appointed Pope of the Church of Laurence? You would say something like, “By the word (bible) of God!”, I say back, “How can that be since the False Catholic Church gave you the book!”
You say because of different movements within the Church, you proclaim it as sign of apostasy, yet Jesus Christ selected his twelve apostles, each one with a different talents, strengths, personalities and weaknesses yet they were all at the “Lords Table”. But soon after calls St. Paul to be His next Apostle and take the Catholic Church around the world!
Laurence, what denomination do you belong to? Tell me when it was first created and whom was it started by? Why was it started in the first place? What new denominations have split away from it and why did they split? Where any of them accused of being “False”? And if none of them were false then why did they break away in the first place. But then again if you are a member of a non-denominational evangelical “health and wealth” one location church then that is a completely different story.
“The Bread of Life Discourse” From the Gospel of St. John, Chapter 6 35-66
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe. Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day.” The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,” and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?” He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.
You say that John Chapter 6 is the linchpin to my argument. I say “John Chapter 6 is the linchpin to Christ argument!
Here is an excerpt for you to rest your heart on
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
Become subject to Christ Word, Laurence.
Pretty clear if you ask me? So how does a “Sola Scriptura” fundamental Christian reconcile this statement of Christ? By the way, no where in the bible does it say by scripture alone. How do you live out this passage? Or is it false or maybe a metaphor?”
In the Catholic Scripture Group I attend 75% are former Protestants. This is always the reason they point to for becoming Catholics, the Body and Blood of Christ.
Catholic Joe
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
4. 4 Catholic Joe Jun 17th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
Round Two
Laurence,
Your reference regarding “the blood” in your Old Testament references are a good try, however fall short of the truth. You are basically saying that Christ should be compared to a strangled animal. (Acts 15: 20, 29)
However why don’t we look at Hebrews 9: 5- 14
“how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.”
Sounds pretty Catholic to me Laurence.
Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the place of expiation. Now is not the time to speak of these in detail. With these arrangements for worship, the priests, in performing their service, go into the outer tabernacle repeatedly, but the high priest alone goes into the inner one once a year, not without blood that he offers for himself and for the sins of the people. In this way the holy Spirit shows that the way into the sanctuary had not yet been revealed while the outer tabernacle still had its place. This is a symbol of the present time, in which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the worshiper in conscience but only in matters of food and drink and various ritual washings: regulations concerning the flesh, imposed until the time of the new order. But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come to be, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not belonging to this creation, he entered once for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a heifer’s ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is cleansed, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
Your comments regarding the “True Vine” are a absolutely perfect point to reference. I could not agree with you more. In order to attach to the vine so to say, you must partake of the Eucharist. In Marks “Last Supper” account or should I say Mass. Sheds significant Light on the importance of the “Bread of Life Discourse”.
Mark 14:25 25
Amen, I say to you, I shall not drink again the fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
Your reference to Ephesians 5:32 I’ll add 5:31
“For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.
You have stumbled upon a great truth regarding the Catholic Church. The Church identifies itself as the “Bride of Christ” completely intertwined with each other.
Amen brother, everyday! (Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 1:3-14)
Laurence you said,
“Isn’t the whole point of the Protestant Reformation that the RCC “crossed the line,” so to speak, from what the Scriptures actually taught (i.e. selling forgiveness of sins through indulgences, etc.)?”
You mean to tell me that the reformation started because of indulgences? Do you know what an indulgence is? Most likely not.
The short course on indulgences.
Pope Paul VI said: “An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints”
Or more simply as, “An indulgence is what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal (lasting only for a short time) penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven.”
Were is that in scripture?
“Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool” (Is. 1:18). This idea of guilt clinging to our souls appears in texts that picture forgiveness as a cleansing or washing and the state of our forgiven souls as clean and white (Ps. 51:4, 9).
“I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless” (Is. 13:11). Judgment pertains even to the smallest sins: “For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil” (Eccl. 12:14). When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:
“Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’” (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)
Protestants realize that, while Jesus paid the price for our sins before God, he did not relieve our obligation to repair what we have done. They fully acknowledge that if you steal someone’s car, you have to give it back; it isn’t enough just to repent. God’s forgiveness (and man’s!) does not include letting you keep the stolen car.
Protestants also admit the principle of temporal penalties for sin, in practice, when discussing death. Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains. after our sins are forgiven. This is a temporal penalty since physical death is temporary and we will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2).
From Catholic Answer’s
The heart of the protestant reformation is politics, without politics Henry VIII, Luther and Calvin: would just be just another English monarch, a forgotten Catholic Priest and a disgruntled former Catholic Seminarian. The Catholic Church currently has more members attending Mass than the Anglican’s attending Sunday Church services in Great Britain, Where are the Presbyterians in Europe? The Lutheran Church in Germany is on life support. So much for the “European Christian Protestant Enlightenment!”
Orthodox and Catholic Reunification is a work in progress, currently the Latin Church has reunified with 24 separate eastern Churches which are now in union with the Holy Father in Rome.
Laurence in regards to your list of scripture passages regarding the “Wolf in Sheep’s Clothes” I could use every one of them in reverse, “Like a thief in the night”, comes to mind.
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
John 6:60-67
As you can see in Christ own words the Eucharist is not for everybody.
I will leave you with this prayer.
Soul of Christ (Anima Christi)
Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me.
Within Thy wounds hide me.
Separated from Thee let me never be.
From the malignant enemy, defend me.
At the hour of death, call me.
And close to Thee bid me.
That with Thy saints I may be
Praising Thee, forever and ever. Amen.
St. Ignatius of Loyola
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
5. 5 Laurence O Jun 19th, 2006 at 10:57 am
Dear “Joe,”
Thank you for your two followup comments. I tried to e-mail you at the e-mail address you provided, but it bounced back with an error.
Please use the “contact me” form to shoot me an e-mail, and I’ll forward you my reply.
sincerely,
LO
T? Did I just find you on here, too???? What's going on?! All of a sudden, you're everywhere!!! :)
Do you mind if I link your blog to mine???
Excellent, love it! Mexican adipex Statistics blocking internet access dental insurance 401k rollover dental plan Audi a2 wheel stop smoking how to format a harddrive Chair in la van wheel http://www.titsasscuntspankenema.info whirlpool refrigerator filter mobile phone tools
Post a Comment